CAMELOT FANTASIES

Quote from: thetruth on November 15, 2015, 09:06:57 am

I have some questions that maybe you guys can answer, because honestly, a lot of what I hear doesn't jibe with what I see.

1. What is this "punishing style" of play that Rafa has, and is he the only one in the history of the sport to have this "punishing style?" Before Rafa I had never heard that term before and I have been watching tennis for decades. I usually watch matches twice, the first time without sound because I can't stand to hear the commentators all use the same phrases and vernacular. I think that's odd. It's like they all share the same brain. It's the sameness that irks me. Does anyone have a different POV? Who is someone else who has a punishing style? There has to be someone  else. To me, the game is extremely physical and everyone looks like they're working hard out there.

2. Why do they say that Agassi is a better returner than Novak? I don't see that either. Agassi doesn't have half the movement that Novak has, or return. So that confuses me as well.

These questions may seem odd to you all, but they really bother me because I don't think it's true, maybe you all can answer it, because someone saying something ad nauseum is not enough to convince me. I need cold, hard, facts!

Hi Lady TT,

1. I think I'll defer this one to general hercules.  But from experience I'll say the topspin game is very hard on a player, which is what I think is meant as "punishing".  Generally, one has to stay farther behind the baseline because one needs more time to be able to give the big swing that is needed to provide the rotation on the ball. One is also hitting the ball on the decline instead of the rise.  That means the ball is slowing down, so requires more of one's own  power. It also equals more power needed to get the produce the distance and spin, more leg strength, more arm strength.  The other part is that he does a lot of running behind the baseline, often because he likes to run around the backhand to hit his forehand.  If it is not an outright winner, he often has to run across to cover the opened up forehand wing.

2. Cold hard facts about Agassi's return game.  Hmm.  I watched Agassi, and yes, he had a great return, but even better baseline game. He could hit many on the half volley, and returned early (on the rise) and not a great deal of clearance over the net (but more than Connors who also had a great flat return).  But hard facts? What about stats? 

Return games won percentage Career on All surfaces:
Agassi is 4th, behind Coria 35%, Nadal 33%, Ferrer 32%, Agassi 32%, and Djokovic is 5th. 
On hard court, return games won pct. for career, Agassi is 2nd behind Andy Murray, Djokovic is 3rd. 

2nd serve return points won % for career on all surfaces?  Agassi is on top, Ferrer 3rd, Nadal 4th, and Djokovic 5th. 

Career 1st serve return pts won on all surfaces? Coria 1st, Ferrer 2nd, Nadal 3rd, Murray 4th, Federer 10th, and Djokovic 11th, Agassi 26th.  But even though there is a relatively large separation on placement, note the percentage differences are often tiny.  In this stat, Coria had 36%. Ferrer, Nadal, and Murray at 34 and fraction, Federer and Djokovic at 33% and a fraction, Agassi at 32% and a fraction.

Of course, some players return better on grass, or hard, or clay.

And lastly, Agassi did it mostly back in the day when the surfaces were more different.  Fast inconsistent grass instead of the higher bouncing table top grass of the last few years. Slow clay.  Faster hard courts and carpet.  So I judge that it was more difficult to return and the baseline game was more difficult to play on 3 of 4 surfaces.  Whereas today, the baseline game is almost the only one that gets played because of the generally slower, higher bouncing surfaces.  This started in 2002 with grass, later with hard courts - 2006 or so, and carpet was steadily replaced during the early-mid 2000's, and  was totally removed by 2009. There are exceptions of course, like Cincinnati, which has stayed about medium fast, Dubai, and some of the 250 tournaments, like Brisbane and Sydney, and a couple in France, but for the most part everything other than clay has been slowed down from what I saw in the 70's , 80's, and 90's.  So I give Agassi extra credit for his ability to return on generally faster surfaces.

Those are the stats. 

Respectfully,
masterclass