CAMELOT FANTASIES

Quote from: thetruth on May 21, 2014, 08:31:36 am

Quote from: masterclass on May 20, 2014, 05:57:45 pm

Well, I guess we have different opinions about that one general hercules.  Can't agree on everything, right? 

For me, he is currently about the same tier level as John Newcombe, Boris Becker, Stefan Edberg, and Mats Wilander, just a step below the all time great players. 

But his career is not done yet, so he can still rise.  1 or 2 more majors should do it for me.  Doesn't need to win at Roland Garros, but it wouldn't hurt.  If not, I'd like to see him at least win Wimbledon or the US Open again.  I think another Australian Open won't do it for me.

Respectfully,
masterclass

I agree, masterclass. Nole is not there just yet for me either, mostly based on his lack of longevity. While he has done some amazing things, his "reign" has been relatively short, starting in 2011. To be considered up there with the likes of Federer and Nadal, he should at least get into double digit slams.

You'll get no argument from me, Lady TT.  I think that longevity comment is spot on. 

They do have different career trajectories.  Rafa was very precocious early on, much like Borg.
At 19, he had already won his first slam and hasn't stopped through 2013, winning 4 majors at RG before winning his first major on grass in 2008. In 2009 he added a hard court major in Australia.  He's won an incredible 8 titles at Roland Garros and his last major so far was at the 2013 US Open.

Roger didn't win his first major till just under 22 years of age, and then rolled on from there, amazingly averaging close to 3 majors/year for 4 years straight and winning his last major so far in 2012 at Wimbledon at a month shy of his 31st birthday.

Novak Djokovic broke through at just under 21 years of age at the Australian Open in 2008, but then struggled to return to the winner's circle in the company of two of the all time great players already mentioned.  He finally broke through again 3 years later in 2011 at the same venue, and had his peak year, winning at Wimbledon and the US Open, then winning his last major so far at  2013 in Australia as well.

But Nole has time yet.  We will see if he can take advantage of Federer and Nadal's decline before declining himself and before others rise.  Declines also have different trajectories, some steady and slow, some precipitous, some up and down, so we can usually only judge those once their careers are over.

Respectfully,
masterclass

Glad we agree, and I know that people are quick to be dismissive, but the tennis gods couldn't have scripted a better rivalry than what we've had with Federer and Nadal. The tennis was absolutely sublime and IMO, (and I only started watching in the 80s so I can't speak before that), but I thought Pete and Andre's battles couldn't be topped. However, Fedal was a whole 'nother level, because to that point nobody played like either one of these guys, to me. Andre wasn't enough of a contrast, but here you had Federer having to deal with an upstart with topspin out the wazoo.

Thinking back, that's crazy, and Fed had to be the pioneer.

It's easy to say how good Player X is, but in reality you have to beat people at their pinnacle, not after ten years on the tour, after they're both worn down from a decade of dominance. Personally, I think it's an unfair comparison, similar to those who say Lleyton and Marat beat Pete in his later years. Uh yeah, but that's understandable. After so long on tour and being the most studied guys, what do you expect?

If you don't beat them at the peak of their powers, it doesn't count as much, IMO.  But, I'm also not going to be unfair to Rafa, because he had to battle Roger when he was still young and green in addition to his peers who were only lagging one year behind him. So, and this is my opinion, I'm not having it from the Johnny-come-latelys.

This is why I have lost respect for Nole as a player. He was there for the last ten years too, and he only started making a mark in 2011, so him acting like he's doing something, to me is laughable. You don't let two warriors battle it out for six or seven years and then come in and get the spoils and iin the process try to stand on someone else's chest. It doesn't work that way, at least not in my book.